DanielB: Sid, hope your having a great time, we're looking forward to your return!
magnusrk: Are there any big inflection points in v2? The smooth income curve seems to remove the yellow/green transition from v1.
Siddharth Venkatesh: From my limited experience, the main mid game bumps seem to come from floating a new company and using it to raid an old one. This obviously goes better with a more company focused early game. I'm not sure how to make an early game trading strategy work so far, privates are just weaker and corp powers give a lot of early value, especially Star and Bear.
DanielB: trading is tougher to make work. Companies (non-corps), simply have greater value to corps, so they need to be squeezed and traded for top dollars....Pure trading strategies don't work, not for an entire game... the decision to buy shares or private new companies is super difficult... company owners need to sacrifice short term gains for long term situations, or swap back and forth, opening them selves up to disruption, which I have not seen well played out, yet....
magnusrk: Also, does everyone agree Horse is awful?
Toby: horse is bad
Toby: ships not very good either though
magnusrk: Ship feels like it was designed for incomes like v1, not low v2 income
DanielB: Horse and shop
DanielB: Both Are awful. Horse is worse
DanielB: I regularly play to control two of the five best corps.
magnusrk: That implies there's a third bad corp. So that'd be... Orion?
magnusrk: It certainly is only viable in games where FI gets a leg up, but then it seems legit.
DanielB: Orion is okay, Eagle is okay... they are both situationally dependent
Siddharth Venkatesh: Eagle seems to be more than okay, I think there's some neat things you can do with it I want to try.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Orion definitely seems a bit more situational but if the FI gets some yellows and you float Orion with DR, it seems quite strong.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Keep pumping yellows into the FI and buying from it. Don't know how this would work in practice.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Star and Bear seem like the strongest to me so far and Star transition into Bear seems extremely good.
magnusrk: Star + buy second share is ridiculous
Siddharth Venkatesh: Strongest with BD/WT or some other synergistic cheap orange I think but I'm liking the way it works even in red.
DanielB: I played with Bjoern last month, v2- 3p game. I was ahead, and used Bear/something else... Bjoern did the Jupiter strategy with reds which ran out of gas. I got the DSB-DR-BSR-HH going, unlikely in a 3p, huge synergies, Bjoern countered with Orion - and bought 3 or 4 companies from the FI - but he couldn't catch up with it. Each buy from FI was like a $5-$8 savings, not enough ($15-$20 in total savings), far less than Saturn, Jupiter or Bear produce over 6-10 turns...
DanielB: On the other hand, in game 1087 right now, I"m totally satisfied with my DR position, which will just buy a yellow from the FI when he operates... no need to trade... And Sid going to Steal Saturn, which is super valuable, but not worth defending when I can get two yellows synergizing with no effort
Siddharth Venkatesh: I tend to like overly complicated plans :) I think in a sense it's good for learning because you get to test the limits of ideas a bit better, although there's also the danger of just creating chaotic noise.
Siddharth Venkatesh: But I'm not sure you get the yellows from the FI in 1087. Orion is floated and has cash and priority.
Siddharth Venkatesh: I failed to steal Saturn in 1087, now in 1081, I did steal it, and I stand by that one for now.
Siddharth Venkatesh: DR does seem quite strong in v2, most of the post orange synergies rely on it and the 12 greens which largely overshadowed it are gone.
magnusrk: The FI discount is only part of the benefit of Orion. I think the priority is also really important, because it means you can really rely on FI to provide companies. That means you no longer need personal liquidity and can go all in on shares.
DanielB: Magnurak. I have not seen Orion used to its full effect. I’m working on that now in game 1086
DanielB: 1087 I mean
DanielB: Quatsch. Game 1060. Using Orion well. It bought PR in 6.3, SNCF in 7.3 and will buy in 8.3 again and probably a few more after that. It needed help to get rolling. It floated w DR at $18 a share and then sold DR for $38 and bought Dsn for $10, then bought back de and parades for min. In other words it needed full support of first company Bear in rounds 5-6-7
DanielB: Floated with Orion in 5.9, at $18, Bear at $20. Positioned Bear
DanielB: In 7.1 positioned Orion at $22 and Bear at $24 so that it would have cost $57 to steal Bear... not hardly possible
DanielB: Then raided Bear in 7.3. Shame to let such a fine company go...049bably in 8.1
Raymond: In 1061 I need a rollback to just before I passed on phase 10.3- misclick
Raymond: Thank you in advance to the appropriate benevolent overlord
magnusrk: Game owner can rollback, looks like it's DanielB
DanielB: yeah, i did that Raymond
Siddharth Venkatesh: 1060 is definitely a good example of an Orion + FI partnership that's gotten off the ground.
Siddharth Venkatesh: I'm still floundering around with Eagle a little. I have ideas but I think it's a difficult company to work with in a large player count game because it really seems best as a builder company that should eventually feed into something else, but all those second companies can just disappear too quickly. Perhaps it's meant to be an early float.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Jupiter seems to die very quickly. It seems meant to hold a bunch of synergistic reds with MS or PR but by the time it gets there, it has so little time before those reds rust, at which point, you'd much rather have Bear. And Star does pretty well as a reds company as well, so long as you can keep it to 2-3 shares for a while. Jupiter doesn't even really outdo Saturn once you get an orange.
Siddharth Venkatesh: So is it meant to be an early cash grab on a fully red company, say with 4-5 reds? Really hard to make it work at high player count I feel.
DanielB: I think an early float Eagle in a LARGE player count game can be highly advantageous. It hasn't been truly explored, I think...
DanielB: The liquidity of issuing shares with no movement needs to be used early and often to get value out of it...
DanielB: then get a second corp and RAID it....
Kelvin: @Toby would it be possible to allow all players to rollback moves a la rr18xx?
magnusrk: Last-own-move undo only would be nice
Toby: would be pretty easy, not sure i have the time right now, you can do a PR if you want
Toby: move this line up to line 253 https://github.com/tobymao/rolling_stock/blob/master/rolling_stock.rb#L279
Toby: and delete this line https://github.com/tobymao/rolling_stock/blob/c1e01dd21362b06ca4b204b967f121f44ca7c91f/views/game.rb#L199
Toby: you'd also have to add last own move undo, because i think it's a bit weird for anybody to roll back all the time
Toby: i've been slammed with work, and when i do have time to code, i'd like to continue progress on my new 18xx web project
DanielB: Kelvin, I opened up a new game to invite more players, including newbies, Game 1105
magnusrk: What's your new 18xx web project?
Toby: i want to make a website to play 18xx, like you can ply rolling stock on this website
Shaz Iqbal: That is very exciting Toby
nahv: What do people think of v1 vs 2.1
Siddharth Venkatesh: Both excellent games. v2 is more unexplored at the moment, the company powers have a lot of implications on strategy and there are both fewer companies to float and fewer spaces to float at which makes positioning yourself in the end game much more challenging. v2 is the good "shorter" rolling stock game, there's no reason to play the short game of v1 anymore.
Siddharth Venkatesh: v2 is less about liquidity, you can sell companies into receivership which opens up a lot of different ways to extract value and makes owning shares earlier much more valid. v2 is also much more about company building and extracting value from corporations rather than private companies. Private income has been considerably lowered, there is no 12 green with crazy ROI anymore and yellows, greens and blues are all lower income. In addition, some of the company powers make floating earlier and building much more viable. So the balance has been moved closer to corporation building.
Siddharth Venkatesh: The fact you can dump a company on the bank also allows you to raid companies more effectively in the mid game, and this is why building a good early company is stronger than in v1. This way of extracting value is a big part of the mid-late game of v1 as well but you can do it earlier and more effectively in v2.
Siddharth Venkatesh: One thing I really like about v2 is that the early game share buying is now a lot more nuanced. In v1, it's rare to buy someone else's share early in the game. The threat of having your liquidity killed is a major risk you take if you buy a share.
Siddharth Venkatesh: I think v1 is a brilliant game and v2 is so far excellent as well but I haven't played enough to have a definite opinion about it. They play quite differently so there's no harm in just playing both.
Siddharth Venkatesh: v2 definitely has a fantastic end game though, since in a competitive game you have to really build up to it to not stall out at the last turn.
magnusrk: v2 seems like it should get nasty with 4+ players since everyone will try to get 2 good corps and there aren't enough. Even worse with 5-6
magnusrk: I guess it might work out as 1860(?) where you intentionally bankrupt a corp so you can refloat it?
Siddharth Venkatesh: I think it's viable, it's something I'm trying in 1081. It doesn't really happen much in 1860 though, insolvent companies are too valuable to let bankrupt, you have to own a lot of a company and deliberately sell into bankruptcy in a stock round, which is tough to make work in practice.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Priority control is probably key to all this, it seems a lot more important in v2 than in v1.
Siddharth Venkatesh: At least earlier on in the game. Priority in v1 was often for snagging a nice company at face value before people could sell, or to grab shares when you know someone is going to float a really good company and both these decisions are there here as well but the higher value companies that have float priority seem amped up in value too.
DanielB: Oh Yeah, PR and DR are golden for floating good corps, even MHE, but they need companies, a ruthless focus on acquiring, and even paying up late for companies is essential...
DanielB: I'll even take an expensive yellow (SNCF, PKP), over a cheaper one, just so I get float priority (corp choice)...
Siddharth Venkatesh: The other thing to keep in mind is that universally companies have more value to corps than in player hands, because in a player hand, it's value is just the face value which is always less than 10x its star value. This makes the cheaper companies in a tier great to acquire even later than normal.
Siddharth Venkatesh: The decision on whether or not to pay dividends early also feels more nuanced in v2. Its rare I want to pay anything other than the bare minimum amount of dividends in v1 needed to get me to the next company I need but in v2, there are lots of ways to inflate the book value of a corp, pay full and still double jump. Star is of course the easiest way to do this, 20 in book value over 2-3 shares goes a long way early.
magnusrk: Would be nice to put together a v2 game of people who can play reliably several moves most/every day
magnusrk: Then run several games in a row to learn and iterate
DanielB: Mag - I concur whole heartedly...
Siddharth Venkatesh: I'm in. I also want some fast games of v2.
magnusrk: Is a 3p in order then? No one else has spoken up
Siddharth Venkatesh: I'll ask some people today if not, 3p is ok. I'd rather play 4, I think RS isn't as good at 3.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Maybe v2 works fine at 3.
Venser: I'd be in, as garbage as I am at these games. But I'm on vacation next week.
Siddharth Venkatesh: We can start one with you when you're back.
Venser: Sounds good. By then my online Here I Stand games should be over.
magnusrk: Any luck, Sid?
Siddharth Venkatesh: I just got back home.
Siddharth Venkatesh: I'll ask now. Also told Daniel to see if Beorn had time.
DanielB: Bjoern doesn't...
Siddharth Venkatesh: Ok, well let me wait a day for response. If not, we can do some 3p games till Venser is free.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Shaz said he is interested
magnusrk: Pending games should probably be garbage collected after a month or so? 1065 seems unlikely to ever start.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Unless there's a huge backlog, it's probably not worth Toby's time. Especially atm, he's pretty busy with work.
magnusrk: Could be manual ;)
Siddharth Venkatesh: True.
magnusrk: Does anyone know why v2 revalues companies? Seems like unnecessary confusion vs changing synergies instead
Siddharth Venkatesh: Well, synergies don't work in player hands. It's not a strict transposition.
magnusrk: I mean, why not keep NS worth 21 (as in v1) and just give it the synergies the current 21 company (KK) has?
Siddharth Venkatesh: Ah, that I don't know. Are the company costs simply permuted?
magnusrk: Some have changed, others not
Siddharth Venkatesh: I imagine Bjorn just rebuilt the costs/revenue/synergies from the ground up, with some framework borrowed from v1. It probably wasn't worth keeping the cost the same, since so much was changing. I'd be interested to hear what his thoughts were on this though.
Siddharth Venkatesh: In general, redesigns are interesting to study because it's rare you have such a comparison you can make between games.
Siddharth Venkatesh: Cole Wehrle has written quite a bit on what he changed from Pamir v1 to v2 and it was interesting to hear/read.